Campaigners confident Saracens' Copthall plans will be stopped
3:40pm Tuesday 7th February 2012 in London News
Saracens' plans for Copthall stadium
Campaigners are "very confident" Saracens’ plans to relocate to Copthall stadium will go up in smoke despite Barnet Council’s approval.
Copthall Community Initiative (CCI) and Campaign to Protect Rural England (CPRE) have pledged to lobby the Mayor of London and Eric Pickles, secretary of state for communities and local government to oppose the application.
Paul Herman, chairman of CCI said: “We are very confident they will turn this down and leave egg on Barnet’s face.”
But if Mr Johnson and Mr Pickle do not object, the Premiership rugby club will develop Copthall into a 10,000 seated venue.
Mr Herman said: “The plans would have an immediate traffic and parking nightmare on the area. We’d also lose a key bit of green belt land right in the heart of Mill Hill and it would be a crying shame for the community.”
John Turtle, vice chairman of CPRE, said: “Copthall is about the worst possible site they could choose, at the centre of a sensitive part of the green belt designated to prevent urban sprawl, and with a public transport access level of zero - the worst possible rating.
“CPRE will be pressing the secretary of state to call the application in for a public inquiry."
Under Saracen’s plans the new ground would be used for up to 16 home matches a year and remain open for community use on non match days. Members of the public would also have access to a new indoor athletics track and an artificial turf pitch.
Saracens and England international player Owen Farrell said: “I have a few friends who are athletes and a new indoor training area is going to be a massive asset for them.
“The artificial turf pitch means the facility is available for local schools 349 days of the year and that will have a huge impact on thousands of lives.
But CCI, which has the support of more than 1,800 people, has come up with an alternative proposal.
Mr Herman said: “We would take the financial burden away from the council and invest in other facilities without developing a 10,000 seated stadium.
“We would use the facilities for things like ballet classes, bridge sessions, football clubs and martial arts classes.
“It would be paid for by the community and used by the community.”
CCI claims it can double Copthall’s usage within eight months and will launch its plans in the next fortnight on its website: www.copthallcommunityinitiative.org
Comments(61)
Sarah-nw4
says...
4:27pm Tue 7 Feb 12
That group isnt half clutching at straws...Mr Herman must be quite the motivator as their plans sound like they have be plucked from thin air! Double the usage within 8 months....what? So instead of one man walking a dog.....we'll now have two?!?!
I would take a bet that not even 1% of this apparent 1800 people came to the one important...no VITAL planning meeting. If they cared that much - they would have come! Mr Herman was pratically sitting in the room on his own....
beshocked
says...
4:36pm Tue 7 Feb 12
If the CCI really cared about Copthall stadium being unde rutilised they would have acted a long time ago.
Launch plans in the next fortnight? Little late surely? Alternative plans should have been laid out a long time ago.
Paul Herman wants to leave egg on Barnet's face? Someone should tell him that the Barnet Copthall stadium is in the borough of Barnet.
The CCI sounds very out of touch with reality.
DannyMan
says...
4:49pm Tue 7 Feb 12
ross86
says...
5:10pm Tue 7 Feb 12
IT STINKS
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
5:10pm Tue 7 Feb 12
I feel for the local press - they could have created a true image of the proportion of people for and against the plans with this vote but this has become scuppered....! and now even this cant be done fairly!
I notice this article has been taken off the website homepage too so people cant read these threads.....
Toucan
says...
5:56pm Tue 7 Feb 12
As opposed to it not being paid for by the community - but most of the community using it for free .
Seems like a great deal !
Seriously CCI - If you had a credible plan why didn't you put it on the table before- it's not like you haven't had time !
This very much smacks of "oh excrement- we didn't see that coming - we'd better do something quick ! "
How sad
Mr_Growser
says...
1:27am Wed 8 Feb 12
PS how come Lionel of NW4 knows who has been manipulating the polling in this paper? Or is it just idle speculation based his prejudices?
redrenault
says...
8:17am Wed 8 Feb 12
beshocked
says...
9:20am Wed 8 Feb 12
Boris won't let it happen? How do you know that?
Redrenault you seem very haughty. Believing that you know better than anyone.
No you evidently don't understand Saracens fans. We want to work with Barnet to get the best deal for Barnet and Saracens. It's all about working together. Co operation is the best way. It's unfortunate that not everyone is co operative but that's life.
I don't know the charity event you refer to. If Nick Leslau wants to chat to Boris Johnson he is well within his rights to though.
You don't get it do you? Your alternative is too late. Saracens have had their plan on the table for some time. It's even been amended.
The only reason why the CCI exists is because it is opposition to Saracens. It doesn't serve any other purpose. Certainly doesn't actually care about reinvigorating the stadium. If it did why wait so long for alternative plans?
Coleman & Offord doing a grand job? Don't make me laugh. One is probably the most unpopular man in Barnet, the other is hanging on for dear life.
Do you know what Barnet times really think? You speak as if you are the sum of all knowledge. You are not and neither am I.
caramelcow
says...
9:57am Wed 8 Feb 12
nw7resident
says...
11:41am Wed 8 Feb 12
I just hope it doesnt all end up coming out of council funds, when it could have been better spent on saving our libraries or helping those in need! Or - and here's a topical one - fixing the potholes that are bound to open up in the roads once the weather's warmed up again! ;)
Mr_Growser
says...
2:34pm Wed 8 Feb 12
As to nw7resident, perhaps he'd like to explain how fast-food and property millionaires (let alone ZA conglomerates) make their money by giving things away? Does anyone really invest (now I see it's claimed to be £20 million) and not get a return? If that's so, are there no more pressing charities in the UK let alone the rest of the world for this munificence? And since at least half this vast sum will come from South Africa, home to very large numbers of deprived people, does not a resident of affluent NW7 feel just a tiny doubt in his mind that this money should not be spent on him and his rugby-loving chums for their free-for-all, but instead on those truly in need? I wonder he can sleep at nights. The smug greed of those supporting this scheme ought not to allowed!
Mr_Growser
says...
2:34pm Wed 8 Feb 12
As to nw7resident, perhaps he'd like to explain how fast-food and property millionaires (let alone ZA conglomerates) make their money by giving things away? Does anyone really invest (now I see it's claimed to be £20 million) and not get a return? If that's so, are there no more pressing charities in the UK let alone the rest of the world for this munificence? And since at least half this vast sum will come from South Africa, home to very large numbers of deprived people, does not a resident of affluent NW7 feel just a tiny doubt in his mind that this money should not be spent on him and his rugby-loving chums for their free-for-all, but instead on those truly in need? I wonder he can sleep at nights. The smug greed of those supporting this scheme ought not to allowed!
Mr_Growser
says...
3:23pm Wed 8 Feb 12
david T G
says...
4:24pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Agreed, no-one wants to continue to throw money away, but the revenue generated by Saracens will enable a return to be achieved by the investors and the promises made to be fulfilled. TV, sponsorship, gate receipts, catering and corporate hospitality etc. will provide the means. Mr G above suggests Saracens do something in South Africa, well last year the Club had a short tour to Cape Town, played local teams, took coaching sessions in the townships and help build five homes there. This year they opened a sports complex in SA, paid for completely by the players themselves. Locally in the UK the Saracens Sprorts Foundation has helped thousands of those who need it most. Elderly, school children and disadvantaged youngsters to lead healthier more fulfilled lives. This is what Saracens will bring to Barnet. Anyone campaigning against Saracens is also campaigning against a fantastic charity and fantastic opportunity for Barnet as a whole.
This is not pipe dream stuff. This is the reality of what Saracens as a whole will do for Barnet.
16 days minimum possible disruption, managed and paid for by Saracens, is surely a small price to pay for such benefits for the greater good.
redrenault
says...
4:26pm Wed 8 Feb 12
david T G
says...
5:12pm Wed 8 Feb 12
If you wish to have more information on Mr Leslau please use your computer and I am sure you will get your answers.
By the way, I have re-read your post above and it appears bordering on libellous.
beshocked
says...
5:22pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Bringing snooker into the argument is bizarre. Snooker couldn't be any more different. Are you now suggesting that those who use Copthall stadium become professional snooker players?
It's also debatable whether snooker is even a sport. Certainly can't see it being endorsed as a highly active sport for children to keep fit. Next you'll be saying darts should become more popular in the Barnet borough.
Snooker is obviously a very dangerous sport played outdoors. I am surprised there are no injuries!
There you go again making generalisations....
Nick Leslau and Nigel Wray have every right to invest money back into their own borough if they choose to.
Redrenault what are you referring to?Why have you got a problem with Nick Leslau?
Please stop judging people before you have met them.
Mr_Growser
says...
7:56pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Three card trick anyone?
I put it down to poor education or injury to the brain caused by early rugby myself. This sort of naivety ought not to be allowed.
david T G
says...
9:23pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Read what has been written both above and on reports from Mr Griffiths and Mr Wray.
16 days Saracens rugby match days.
SCHOOL USE FREE.
No trick, no con, no ulterior motive.
FACT!
Something you seem to ignore or misconstrue.
I have now had my share of posts.
I respectfully suggest you have had your share too. Now can we hear from any others.
redrenault
says...
10:23pm Wed 8 Feb 12
beshocked
says...
9:02am Thu 9 Feb 12
Out of character? How can you say that when you don't know them?
You expect a response from EG,Nigel Wray or Nick Leslau? I think your overstate your importance.
Believe it or not but I am sure none of them have the time in the day to chat to some random keyboard warriors on the internet.
Even if they did why would they? You and Mr Growser will never change your views. There is always opposition to change even if it will benefit many people.
Mr_Growser
says...
2:55pm Thu 9 Feb 12
ed middle class and persuade their obese children to run about a bit and stop eating pizza, or should there be genuine productive investment to help the genuinely poor closer to Stellenbosch?
For that alone this wasteful and unsustainable scheme ought not to be allowed!
david T G
says...
3:50pm Thu 9 Feb 12
I am sure there are some people in the UK you describe, but I have not met any, NOT ANY, who follow Saracens.
I am 62, have followed and played sport all my life. I have benefitted from that involvement massively. The opportunity to give others that chance must not be missed. My children are not obese they are also involved in sport.
May I ask, why you despise the middle classes so much when your posts would indicate you are a homeowner in a most affluent area and unlikely to be lower/working class.
You appear prejudiced, bigotted, intransient and totally unreasonable. As you say you are not going to change your views about the scheme, there is no point in answering any more of your questions or even reading any more of your posts.
p.s. I did just ask a question above, but don't bother responding, I will not be reading it.
Mr_Growser
says...
4:32pm Thu 9 Feb 12
beshocked
says...
4:49pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Mr Growser you are happy to make wild accusations and claims with no substantial evidence to back up what you say.
Just because you disagree with the plans doesn't mean you are right.
Bazster
says...
10:09pm Thu 9 Feb 12
1- no use of Bunns Lane or Page Street which are not as wide as Pursley road
2- Add colour to larger events that would involve more than 2000 people
3 - Provide weekend football pitches & facilities for Kentish Town football club
4- Agree to the site NEVER being redevloped for Stadium larger than 10,000 people.. putit in the lease !!!
5 - minimise car usage from day 1 ...
regards
Bazster
beshocked
says...
8:44am Fri 10 Feb 12
1. Restricting roads will cause more problems.
2.What does that even mean?
3.What exactly has Kentish Town FC got to do with anything? It's not in the borough of Barnet. Seems like double standards from yourself.
4. Unacceptable, if something is successful you want it to grow.
5. This is the only one that could work but has to be realistic.
Your demands sound draconian and unworkable.
redrenault
says...
9:19am Fri 10 Feb 12
1 – Restricting roads will FORCE people to use public services more and thus impact the neighbourhood far less and will be far more environmentally friendly.
2 - How many events a year – outside the 16 Rugby games, will expect to attract in excess of 2000 people ? Answers on a postcard –please !!!???
3 – Kentish town have been using the Copthal site for years, and have a strong following whilst providing a key community service for kids and disabled families within the community. Despite the name they are and always have been local !!! There is no room for them in the Saracen plans.
4- Unacceptable to limit site size ??!! This is the key point and why no-one believes a word you are saying – This is why it’s a ploy to get hold of key NW London real estate. Why else would Nick Leslau – A PROPERTY DEVELOPER be so interested ?. And don’t you dare throw purely PHILANTHROPIC reason into the mix. This is probably why he has been so quiet, no interviews, in the background because he would not want to be picked up on things moving forward ! IMO. Prove me wrong. No we do not want a 20,000 seater stadium in 5 years time thanks ..
5 – How do you define realistic – easier for you supporters or the community ?Real fans would put up with restrictions whatever .. Spurs & Arsenal fans have !!
Draconian & unworkable .. no, in fact forward thinking – environmentally sustainable and community focussed..
educated
says...
9:52am Fri 10 Feb 12
Barnet Council would no doubt be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of more revenue coming in from introducing extra parking restrictions around the area!
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
10:00am Fri 10 Feb 12
But I felt given the good that can come from Saracens arrival - I must keep with you and play 'ping pong' with what actually seems like the only 2 people in the whole of Barnet who are against this scheme - Mr G and RR....albeit they are incredibly dull.
Lets get back to the principles shall we - Saracens, playing a maximum of 16 days a year rugby, the rest of the time to be used by athletics and the community. Local schools getting FREE use of the stadium. The rugby - around 5 hours of increased traffic per match day. 16 x 5 equals 80 hours. 365 x 24 hours equals 8,760. So....80 hours of the 8,760 we get in a year will be on rugby. Thats 0.91% rugby.......this is an unbelivebale opportunity for Barnet where really - rugby isnt even the major event.....!!!COMMUNI
TY USE is!!! My kid is very excited, his rugby club are excited, I am very excited, and the majority of Barnet is incredibly excited about the potential Saracens can bring to the neighbourhood.
I genuinely look forward to the responses from the usual two....I understand their concerns as I know them inside out already......very tideous.
redrenault
says...
10:22am Fri 10 Feb 12
DannyMan
says...
12:02pm Fri 10 Feb 12
RedRenault probably wants to take a deep breath and think about libel before he posts here again.
Prestwick
says...
12:47pm Fri 10 Feb 12
- Most of the children of Barnet (apparently all public school, middle class and are fatties)
- Most kids who benefit from the Saracens Sports foundation who turn them away from a life of gang related violence (I STILL remember that 17 year old completely obliterating Mr Growser by saying actually Saracens saved him from a life of drugs, knives and jail after Growser banged on about Sarries not having any community benefits)
- Most rugby fans and players who turn up on a weekend to play/watch without incident and find the dwarf throwing antics of 15 - 21 people highly unsavoury and against what rugby is about.
- Most economists for thinking that sinking tens of millions over the past few years as well as £18 million into Copthall without any financial gain is somehow a stunning financial strategy worthy of Warren Buffet.
- This newspaper for alleging that Saracens have rigged the vote on the front page when actually it was one anti-Revival chap disabling his cookies and clicking no repeatedly.
At the end of the day Growser and RR are simply regurgitating the same arguments but the facts are startling Copthall Revival will:
- Deliver a brand new stadium with facilities for athletics, rugby and more besides.
- Offer a maximum of 16 rugby games a year. End of story.
- Offer free use of facilities to schools in Barnet, state run, private or otherwise and definitely beyond the upper class fatties Growser seems to think inhabit Barnet, shows how out of touch he is.
- Give local residents unprecedented power to layeth the smacketh down on any traffic disruption on match days with in depth consultation, roving CPZs and a direct hotline to Saracens if things are getting out of hand.
At the end of the day now this has landed on Boris's desk (and I have every confidence a man of his stature will give this the green light) this is now a London wide issue as it has benefits that go beyond Barnet. Thus as a London resident I say this should absolutely, positively must be allowed! ;)
nw7resident
says...
1:21pm Fri 10 Feb 12
In answer to your previous point about local clubs, I would refer you to the story that appeared here in Barnet Times a few weeks ago http://www.times-ser
ies.co.uk/news/topst
ories/9460982.Sports
_clubs_throw_support
_behind_Saracens__Co
pthall_plans/ This included the Golf club and some of the football teams - and the pool is completely separate anyway and as I understand it, its car park is not to be used by the rugby fans...... plus once again - this is up to 16 days a year. Again - I think we locals win in that compromise, though I know you disagree. I don't know what was agreed with Kentish Town, but I do remember Edward Griffiths saying they were in discussions with them. Am I right in saying they were actually forced out of their real home in Camden to play here in Barnet? I think so.
Educated - I actually think you would find that matchdays will turn out to be the few days when it ISN'T bedlam around there because parking will be restricted, with the exception of residents and their guests on these occasions - and all their permits (residents and guests) will be paid for by Saracens. The council will not benefit from parking revenue at all.
Mr_Growser
says...
5:30pm Fri 10 Feb 12
Anyway how does s/he know that was done? It's disgraceful!
But anyway, of course most kinds are not obese. Their parents don't allow them unlimited quantities of pizza, and let them run about in the open air. By the way, name one Barnet resident who made his millions out of fast food and supports the Copthall plans of Saracens? Well, now, there's a surprise! It oought not to be allowed!
saracenman
says...
7:57pm Fri 10 Feb 12
But it frankly sums up RR and his pathetic attempts to argue a lost cause.
Prestwick
says...
7:04am Sat 11 Feb 12
I was going to hope that Growser learnt a lesson but instead Growser thought "****! I've been called out on my blatant offensive generalisation so I'll try and make a tenuous link between Dominos Pizza, Saracens and PURE EVIL! Best ban ALL food advertising on that ridiculous basis.
Also there are plenty of residents in Barnet who back the Copthall revival and if you bothered to ask them their opinion instead of typecasting them as rich toffs/poor scumbags/gang members/public schoolboy fatties then you'd find that they believe that it definitely SHOULD be allowed who are decent, hardworking and reasonable people.
Also if you bothered to speak to anybody within Barnet and the wider area you'd find that sports clubs, schools and even the local golf club all back the revival.
Geez louise Growser! I would have thought you would have learnt your lesson since when that 17 year old totally annihilated you by pointing out that you didn't bother to research Saracen's youth charity and the youth demographic of Barnet!
Just Asking
says...
4:03pm Sun 12 Feb 12
Kentish Town FC have never played football as a Senior side in Camden. Kentish Town are of no interest what so ever to Saracens and they have made that plain and clear in their lack contact and in fact their ignorance in the way the football club has bean treated by Saracens.
redrenault
says...
2:03pm Mon 13 Feb 12
DannyMan
says...
4:02pm Mon 13 Feb 12
redrenault
says...
4:36pm Mon 13 Feb 12
DannyMan
says...
4:49pm Mon 13 Feb 12
Prestwick
says...
4:51pm Mon 13 Feb 12
Fact: Plenty of people in Barnet who choose to play sport on a regular basis in their free time would want to live near a state of the art complex that would offer its facilities for community use for free.
Fact: Plenty of people in the surrounding boroughs who also enjoy playing sport or keeping fit would love to live near such a complex.
I think the only hysterical people commenting on this article are RedRenault and so on who are predicting apocalyptic doom and gloom, the destruction of green belt land and promises of Copthall being exploited for massive "events" (despite Saracens having no intention or even ability legally of doing so outside of their 16 match allocation).
I think the facts speak for themselves: that this is a well intentioned investment in Barnet and North London aimed at reviving Copthall into something very special: an amazing sports complex aimed at giving the local community and North London as a whole the facilities it deserves.
DannyMan
says...
4:55pm Mon 13 Feb 12
redrenault
says...
5:02pm Mon 13 Feb 12
People do not live at School ...
Please find an estate agent that would agree with you...
It must be nice to be so confident about these other events, because at the moment dear old EG has not said anything to anyone about the other “events” or the planning there of. Please enlighten us.
Regards
RR
DannyMan
says...
5:34pm Mon 13 Feb 12
Condition 3 of the planning consent granted on 2nd February:
- No more than 16 Saracens Home Matches each calendar year at the Stadium.
- No more than 2 other Major Events per annum (which shall be for athletics or other appropriate outdoor community sporting activities) at the Stadium and its associated
facilities.
And Clause 1.1 of the draft Section 106 agreement:
- Ensuring that the Stadium (including its the facilities within the Site) is available for Community Use and enjoyment on all days except up to 16 Saracens Home Match Days
Do try to keep up RR, everyone else is way ahead of you.
david T G
says...
6:15pm Mon 13 Feb 12
The massive benefits it will bring are irrelevant to him.
By the way RR. please mind your language in your postings, thank you.
DannyMan
says...
6:25pm Mon 13 Feb 12
d, well-maintained Copthall development will similarly enhance RR's area. I cannot believe that the depressing sight of Copthall as it is now does anything for house prices.
nw7resident
says...
6:26pm Mon 13 Feb 12
But to everyone living around Copthall (including me ...)
THERE IS ALREADY A STADIUM THERE! and it ain't new - it's been there for half a century...
and the trouble is -
that is EXACTLY what it looks like.
quote rr "because what sensible person wants to live within spitting distance of a stadium ? Unless you are temporarily living in the area or a sports fanatic there are NO benefits to living so close. What the club is proposing is stupid for such a residential area."
Prestwick
says...
6:49pm Mon 13 Feb 12
- Have you ever wondered what people mean when they say "most schools in Barnet support the Copthall Revival"? They mean headmasters, teachers and parents back the Copthall Revival because it will provide top notch sporting facilities for children of all ages to use. Even for the upper class fatties that Growser thinks mostly inhabit Barnet!
- I don't think this is about class or how much you earn...well it is if you're Growser but thats besides the point. This is about £20 million worth of investment in Copthall to make it awesome. I'll spell that out for you: A-W-E-S-O-M-E. Awesome for rugby fans, awesome for local kids and kids across North London, awesome for our next generation of Olympic athletes, awesome for people who play sport or want to keep fit on weekends and awesome for basically everybody. If the local golf club think the revival is awesome then I'm sorry you've lost the argument.
- EG doesn't have to say anything about events because as pointed out by my good man, DannyMan, the planning consent tells you all you need to know: 2 events a year and guaranteed access by the community outside of the 16 match days. If that doesn't tell you everything you want to know I'm not sure what will.
- I think any Estate Agent will tell you that a state of the art sports and training complex offering the very best athletics and gym facilities in the borough sitting slap bang right next to you would do something many Economists and Housing experts call "increase the value of your house!"
- Because this is awesome and the Copthall Revival is awesome and the response from the most excellent people of Barnet in backing the Revival has been awesome I'll spell it again: A-W-E-S-O-M-E.
DannyMan
says...
6:57pm Mon 13 Feb 12
In fact, the conditions expressly forbid both amplified music events and professional football, but that's just belt-and-braces really because the condition above covers it all.
Prestwick
says...
7:07pm Mon 13 Feb 12
saracenman
says...
7:19pm Mon 13 Feb 12
Bazster
says...
10:00pm Mon 13 Feb 12
NW7 - I assume RR was referring to a 10,000 seater stadium rather than the 3000 seater site when he purchased his house..
Dannyman.. in the plans there are no limits on events - sporting or otherwise if below 3000..hmm best double check eh !
oh . and there is Dannyman, the final one of the cronies from the saracenblog site who simply ridicules and bullies those who do not want the area turned into a major uk sports hub !!!
DannyMan
says...
11:15pm Mon 13 Feb 12
As for events attended by fewer than 3,000 people, the existing stadium has a capacity of 5,000, so I presume you are campaigning not only against Saracens' plans but also for the existing stadium to be demolished?
Prestwick
says...
11:15pm Mon 13 Feb 12
- Sadly any analysis of some of the most successful people in business (Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page and Segey Brin will reveal that not only do they have high IQs and older than 12 they use the word "awesome" quite a lot AND are incredibly rich and successful. You are partially right on the leaving school bit however but hey they are rich and you are not thus they're right and you are not. Sorry, what was that about not being taken seriously?
- Barnet Council and Saracens seem to think there are limits on events, especially outdoor music events of which are banned completely (Planning conditions page 2, item 6 in the s106 obligations document). You might want to correct them on that.
- Its also a forum and not a blog site thingy. And if you read the comments from the fans on the forum you'd find that Saracens fans are a passionate bunch who are passionate about their rugby and passionate about making a difference in the community. They're just as proud with the work Saracens do with youth groups across North London and they're happy that Saracens are going to provide a world class facility for the community of Barnet.
- I think the real bullies are those who think that only those who live in the immediate vicinity of Copthall can comment on this issue and anybody else is simply wrong or "can't be taken seriously". The people of Barnet have been called a variety of nasty things by some of the ANTIs on this board not least calling their kids rich fatties.
- Also a debate needs to include recognition that this plan has the backing of schools, athletics clubs and many community groups in Barnet. If you dismiss these important stakeholders and then accuse others of not being taken seriously how exactly can you be taken seriously yourself?
redrenault
says...
5:02pm Tue 14 Feb 12
Regards
RR
david T G
says...
9:40pm Tue 14 Feb 12
If people like rr and g had their way, there would be no Wembley (where I used to live) no White Hart Lane, no Emirates, no etc etc etc.....
So long as it's somewhere else fine, but NIMBY!!
Copthall will give others another outlet other than rugby.
Therefore it appears you are covertly now supporting Saracens at Copthall. Well done. It has taken some time, but you are now seeing the benefits of the rejuvination.
saracenman
says...
11:00pm Tue 14 Feb 12
Get off your wonkey hobby horse and address the real issues- you are losing it!
Jon115
says...
3:45pm Sat 5 May 12
Where do I get a season ticket and a decent pint...
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