Noor Ramjanally abducted and threatened unless he stops Islamic prayer services at Murray Hall
11:50pm Wednesday 26th August 2009 in
A MUSLIM community leader was kidnapped from his home and taken to Epping Forest where he was ordered at knifepoint to stop holding prayer meetings.
Details are starting to emerge of the latest attack on Noor Ramjanally, whose home was firebombed last month.
He was in his flat in Valley Hill, Loughton, on Monday when he heard someone repeatedly ringing the intercom outside.
He said: “The doorbell kept ringing, I thought it was someone to fix up the flat. I came down and two men grabbed me. They put a weapon, I think a knife, at the back of me and forced me into a 4x4.
“They didn't say anything until I was in the forest. They said they didn't want the Islamic group in Loughton.”
After the man drove off Mr Ramjanlly was able to attract a dogwalker passing by who phoned the police. He said: “It was very shocking. I was still shaking when I got inside. It's killing me.”
The abduction marks the third time that Mr Ramjanally has been targeted since he set up Islamic prayer meetings in Murray Hall, in Borders Lane, Loughton, earlier this year.
Last month he received hate mail threatening his family and later suffered an arson attack at his home.
Essex Police have confirmed they are treating the latest attack as a hate crime and are linking it to the two previous incidents and the use of Murray Hall.
Superintendent Simon Williams said: "We are treating these offences with the utmost seriousness and are putting considerable resources into the investigation.
"While that investigation continues we will be working with the whole population of Loughton to ensure that all members of the community are free to practise their religion and beliefs safely and freely."
Anyone with information about any of the incidents is asked to call police at Loughton on 0300 333 4444, or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.
Comments(54)
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
7:03am Thu 27 Aug 09
I think Mr Ramjanally is extremely brave to continue after the previous incidents and I hope that this campaign of intimidation ends here and now.
lukegowing
says...
9:19am Thu 27 Aug 09
Katie Rolt
says...
9:25am Thu 27 Aug 09
“They didn't say anything until I was in the forest. They said they didn't want the Islamic group in Loughton.” – This to me doesn’t quite sound right, the type of thug that one pictures that would do such a thing, wouldn’t talk in such a way. Nor would they risk being caught by travelling to the forest.
“will be working with the whole population of Loughton to ensure that all members of the community are free to practise their religion and beliefs safely and freely." – As a side note, it is worth noting that Loughton has a very small Muslim population and that most of the people who attend come from outside Loughton and Essex.
Lastly, Loughton Town Council STILL haven’t asked Mr Ramjanally to take down his website, that clearly states that Murray Hall is “Loughton Mosque”!
D-503
says...
10:05am Thu 27 Aug 09
Is there any proof to substantiate this claim? He says he doesn't consider the hall to be a mosque and that he doesn't want it as a mosque. The town council say it is absurd. So these allegations are BNP lies.
"by playing the poor innocent victim role."
... because he is the victim of serious hate crimes. He doesn't need to 'play' anything. Perhaps you think Jews play the 'poor innocent victim role' when they remember the Nazi Holocaust - which the BNP doesn't believe happened anyway!
"This to me doesn’t quite sound right, the type of thug that one pictures that would do such a thing, wouldn’t talk in such a way."
And you are an expert on how thugs talk?!
"Nor would they risk being caught by travelling to the forest."
Yes, because no thugs have ever taken any of their victims to Epping Forest in 4x4s to murder and bury them: http://www.bernardom
ahoney.com/rrmurders
/articles/tvf10000dw
efs.shtml
"it is worth noting that Loughton has a very small Muslim population and that most of the people who attend come from outside Loughton and Essex."
Presumably you have evidence to support this claim. According to the 2001 Census, there were 46 Muslims living in Alderton Ward alone and over 1,400 in Epping Forest: http://tiny.cc/36jKc The number of Muslims has probably increased since then. Mr Ramjanally has said that around 50-60 attend Friday prayers. They have as much right to freedom of worship as anyone else. As Murray Hall is also used by Christian groups, then why not Muslims?
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
11:01am Thu 27 Aug 09
Your comment on how thugs talk is very amusing, do you think he might be paraphrasing by any chance?
How relevant is it that there is a small population of muslims locally, does this mean they shouldnt be allowed to hire a hall until they make up a certain percentage of locals?
"Poor innocent victim role" - this man has been held at knife point, kidnapped and threatened. Not to mention the firebombing and letters. The suggestion that this is fabricated is utter nonsense.
Jane Swartz
says...
11:15am Thu 27 Aug 09
I do hope the Police thoroughly investigate these claims and get to the bottom of it.
Religion has no place in Community buildings in any form.
Morris Hickey
says...
11:30am Thu 27 Aug 09
"Honi soit qui mal y pense".
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
11:30am Thu 27 Aug 09
D-503
says...
11:36am Thu 27 Aug 09
On what grounds? That he is a Muslim and therefore must be a liar?
The BNP has already spread lies about Murray Hall becoming a mosque in an anti-Muslim leaflet it distributed. Yet now that same party wants us to believe that this man is typing hate mail to himself, setting his front door on fire, walking into Epping Forest to find a dog walker to call 999 and fake an abduction and scaring the hell out of his wife and son in the process.
"Religion has no place in Community buildings in any form."
So, I guess that means the end of having local children performing the Nativity at Murray Hall at Christmas?
Jane Swartz
says...
11:42am Thu 27 Aug 09
Throw enough and some sticks comes to mind.
These allegations are extremely serious and if they have been reported, they will no doubt be investigated. It will all come out in the wash. Watch this space.
D-503
says...
11:43am Thu 27 Aug 09
Jane Swartz
says...
11:46am Thu 27 Aug 09
D-503 wrote:These comments are plain stupid and I do hope she resigns. I do not know where she was bought up but these methods are unknown to me. She is not fit to be a councillor talking like this.
Do people here agree with Councillor Richardson that "Smashing windows is a British method"?
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
11:50am Thu 27 Aug 09
You are only being asked to substantiate your claims, which you havent done.
D-503 - I think that comment about smashing windows just shows the level of intelligence we are dealing with in the BNP. I never knew that each nationality had their own method for intimidation. Hope people realise who they voted in and change their minds next time.
Jane Swartz
says...
12:12pm Thu 27 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:It is purely a personal opinion. You know, when you see on TV the husband of a murder victim bawling his eyes out and gnashing teeth only to hear a few weeks later that he is the main suspect. That sort of thing. I do not believe a word of it personally.
Jane Swartz - Did you read the article? The police have commented - clearly the incidents have been reported. Lets hope it all does come out in the wash.
You are only being asked to substantiate your claims, which you havent done.
D-503 - I think that comment about smashing windows just shows the level of intelligence we are dealing with in the BNP. I never knew that each nationality had their own method for intimidation. Hope people realise who they voted in and change their minds next time.
I have faith in the Police to do a thorough investigation and if they smell a rat, then they will find it for certain.
Jane Swartz
says...
12:24pm Thu 27 Aug 09
It will all come out in the wash no doubt and I will eat my bonnet if wrong.
D-503
says...
12:24pm Thu 27 Aug 09
Bundling people into the back of cars and intimidating them is normal among the criminal fraternity. When you take into account the New Year's Eve riot at the Football Academy, which saw people stabbed and run over with cars, it looks tame.
D-503
says...
12:40pm Thu 27 Aug 09
rry.org/2009/05/15/b
np-councillor-rod-la
w-and-his-drug-deali
ng-friend/
Hmm, the plot thickens.
D-503
says...
12:43pm Thu 27 Aug 09
http://tiny.cc/vPETr
D-503
says...
1:44pm Thu 27 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
2:08pm Thu 27 Aug 09
Morris Hickey
says...
2:19pm Thu 27 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:I am offering to pay for the pepper and salt. Does it need mustard or HP sauce?
I agree, there is a lot of absurd nonsense on here. Im looking forward to Jane Swartz eating her bonnet.
D-503
says...
2:25pm Thu 27 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:Do you think Chris Morris wrote those lines for Councillor Richardson? She meant to sound righteous, but she looks so stupid her words are more appropriate for satire. There's nothing British about throwing bricks through people's windows or setting golliwogs alight at a weird ritual at the Red, White and Blue festival. It is BNP behaviour. But the only people worse than the BNP councillors are the cretins who vote them in knowing that they are a racist party and whose councillors have gone on the record saying that hooliganism is British. If these BNP councillors are re-elected next year, then Loughton will look really bad. And if the council standards board doesn't take action against Councillor Richardson, then it makes all councillors look incompetent. Why should I let these fools spend the money I have to pay in council tax?
I agree, there is a lot of absurd nonsense on here. Im looking forward to Jane Swartz eating her bonnet.
lukegowing
says...
3:27pm Thu 27 Aug 09
interesting spelling (made up)
normally its schwartz ? or maybe im being a tad cynical as to your motives
Jane Swartz
says...
3:59pm Thu 27 Aug 09
If you type my name in Google you will see all my ancestors you foolish person. 'Normally it is Schwartz' my bonnet.
sparkyD
says...
9:33pm Thu 27 Aug 09
D-503
says...
10:21pm Thu 27 Aug 09
Katie Rolt
says...
10:57pm Thu 27 Aug 09
sparkyD wrote:That is a valid point.
if all this is true then this guy should stop what he is doing for the sake of his own saftey
This man claims, although no charges, leads etc. have been made by the Police that the following has happened to him over a short period:
1 – Abused in the street
2 – Had his flat “fire bombed”
3 – Been abducted in broad daylight
If these incidents really happened, then the Police would be advising him not to got ahead with anymore prayer meetings at this time for his own safety.
Yet, oddly his going carrying on as normal, despise telling the nations media he fears for his life!
I know if these three things happened to me, especially within a short period of each other, I would be keeping a low profile
Katie Rolt
says...
11:11pm Thu 27 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:You are right and wrong. “Loughton Mosque” is a tag he has placed on the website for search engines. Yet, his website address is loughtonmasjid.co.uk – “masjid” is the Islamic word for Mosque! Like it or not Mr Ramjanally’s group believes that Murray Hall is their group’s and Loughton’s Mosque.
Katie Rolt - Loughton Mosque is a search term on the website as far as I can see, not a declaration that the community centre is a mosque.
Your comment on how thugs talk is very amusing, do you think he might be paraphrasing by any chance?
How relevant is it that there is a small population of muslims locally, does this mean they shouldnt be allowed to hire a hall until they make up a certain percentage of locals?
"Poor innocent victim role" - this man has been held at knife point, kidnapped and threatened. Not to mention the firebombing and letters. The suggestion that this is fabricated is utter nonsense.
As for his claimed “abduction”, at this time there is no proof that this incident took place. There are numerous CCTV cameras in Loughton, so within a few days we should be able to confirm whether this incident took place. I noticed that he has a brilliant memory of the event; I would have expected that with such a shocking attack, he would have some hazy memory, due to the stress caused by the event, yet no, he has crystal clear recollection!
SylvieM
says...
1:46am Fri 28 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
7:15am Fri 28 Aug 09
Quite clearly he has wound up a lot of people with the 'Loughton Mosque' but in an area where we have had people shooting at police and mass brawls which end up on crimewatch then i dont think its all that unlikely that he was kidnapped.
I would like to see the people who have been intimidating Mr Ramjanally caught and then he will be able to continue his prayer meetings. Although I think he should stop using the search term and web address of Loughton Mosque (thanks for the translation Katie Rolt).
I still want to see that lady eat her bonnet.
JuliaM
says...
8:13am Fri 28 Aug 09
So, it won't be a problem that you jumped to conclusions based on your prejudices, it'll be a problem because it'll make it harder for you to do so in future and have gullible people velieve you?
Odd set of priorities you have there...
D-503
says...
8:46am Fri 28 Aug 09
According to her, it's the "British way" of showing displeasure. It's a pretty stupid thing to say, particularly in the context of the reporting of a serious crime. Don't you agree? Please tell your friend Pat Richardson to engage her brain before blurting to the media.
"there are parts of London where there are no go areas for white people. They have been completely taken over causing white flight."
Nonsense. The only city with 'no go' areas has been Belfast. There are no road blocks and separation barriers in London. People are entitled to buy or rent a house wherever they want. What you appear to be suggesting is preventing people from moving into white areas because of their skin colour and/or religious belief. There is historical precedent for this: the Nuremberg Laws of Nazi Germany and Apartheid in South Africa.
Rob25
says...
10:37am Fri 28 Aug 09
ShirleyNott
says...
11:44am Fri 28 Aug 09
Mr Ramjanally- I hope you can be encouraged by the support of many faith leaders across the area and ordinary citizens of all faith backgrounds (and none) who say NO to bigotry and discrimination in all its forms.
Hugo Syn
says...
11:55am Fri 28 Aug 09
The origins of this series of unfortunate events goes back to when a local story appeared on the internet and on the extremist Searchlight website, claiming that Ramanjally had received nasty letters and phone calls, and then had his front door set on fire. Searchlight (run by the communist and convicted burglar, Gerry Gable) then implied that the BNP were involved.
There followed a group meeting of Mr Ramjanally, the police, town Mayor, members of the "multifaith forum" and members of the LRA, from which the BNP were conveniently excluded. The BNP felt the need to to issue a leaflet to highlight this and the Hall hire. The leaflet received some publicity, after which Mr. Ramanjally has alleged that he was somehow (in broad daylight) "abducted" by men who used the sort of language used by the BNP in their leaflet!!!
The question that must be asked: is Mr. Ramanjally part of a much wider organisation? Is he advertising the Loughton Misjad up and down the country in an attempt to attract more Muslims to the area? Is it not part of a natural progression that is being orchestrated? The people of Loughton surely have a right to know.
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
12:17pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Its a little sad the way all the BNP supporters on here whip it up into a frenzy when a few people hire a community hall.
I agree that it shouldnt be referred to as 'Loughton Mosque' but for the BNP to issue a leaflet and stir things up is just pathetic.
Jane Swartz
says...
12:33pm Fri 28 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:He is playing up to do gooders like you, this is part of his master plan to get the sympathy of the silent majority. Slowly slowly then it is like Forest gate, overtaken. You may believe all this harassment tosh, but I and many others do not.
Another person who suggests this was a staged or made up kidnapping . Im not sure what everyone thinks he has to gain by making up these events, he only wants to run a prayer meeting.
Its a little sad the way all the BNP supporters on here whip it up into a frenzy when a few people hire a community hall.
I agree that it shouldnt be referred to as 'Loughton Mosque' but for the BNP to issue a leaflet and stir things up is just pathetic.
Like someone else said, if I felt threatened, I would be well gone. Surely the Police would have offered him alternative living arrangements?
They would be negligent not to have?
ConcernedofLoughton
says...
1:17pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Morris Hickey
says...
1:31pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Keep your faith, Mr Ramjanally, and do not yield to bigotted bullies.
JuliaM
says...
3:20pm Fri 28 Aug 09
ConcernedofLoughton wrote:Well, 'ConcernedofLoughton
So Im a "do gooder" because I dont agree with you. Sounds reasonable.
', you referred to all the people who merely commented that parts of this man's story don't pass the 'smell test' as 'all these BNP supporters', so turnabout is fair play, isn't it?
JuliaM
says...
3:23pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Morris Hickey wrote:Oh, and another one.
Reading threads like this one begins to identify BNP supporters from their comments - whether from Loughton, Swanley or Darlington.
Keep your faith, Mr Ramjanally, and do not yield to bigotted bullies.
I've no time whatsoever for the BNP, but I've ALSO no time whatsoever for people who jump to conclusions about why commenters are pointing out that parts of this man's story just don't ring true...
Jane Swartz
says...
3:48pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Like the previous commentator none of this rings true and I am certain that the Police will be dealing with this. If they have any suspicion they will investigate all leads and any flaws in his tale. I only hope that the dumbed down CPS do not 'advise' them to ignore any dubious findings through fear of the usual 'Institutionalised racism' allegations being made.
This Country has through fear of being labelled racist abandoned all tradition, pandered for too long now to the pro-immigration lobby and has ignored the genuine and concerned British Population (including long established migrants from all races and Nationalities) who have a real and justified fear for the future because of the erosion of British values and history. This centre was never intended to be used as a Mosque nor a Christian Church but it is typical that the smoke screen is put up by this man to fend off any opposition. He may dupe the naive but he will not dupe me or some of the other equally genuine contributors who are airing their cynicism here.
D-503
says...
4:09pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Jane Swartz
says...
4:33pm Fri 28 Aug 09
D-503 wrote:I do agree with what you say and have expressed my displeasure with her comments earlier.
Jane: Could you tell me what "British values" are? Do they not include freedom of worship and tolerance? Pat Richardson seems to think that chucking bricks through windows is a British way of showing displeasure, so perhaps I'm either not British for disagreeing or the BNP does not represent the values were are supposed to cherish. By the way, although I think you are wrong, I don't think you are BNP.
I am sure that you know what I mean.
An example is trying to drop the word 'Christmas' at Christmas time for example.
D-503
says...
4:43pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Jane Swartz wrote:"I am sure that you know what I mean.
D-503 wrote:I do agree with what you say and have expressed my displeasure with her comments earlier.
Jane: Could you tell me what "British values" are? Do they not include freedom of worship and tolerance? Pat Richardson seems to think that chucking bricks through windows is a British way of showing displeasure, so perhaps I'm either not British for disagreeing or the BNP does not represent the values were are supposed to cherish. By the way, although I think you are wrong, I don't think you are BNP.
I am sure that you know what I mean.
An example is trying to drop the word 'Christmas' at Christmas time for example.
An example is trying to drop the word 'Christmas' at Christmas time for example."
I don't think this is widespread and I don't think Muslims are demanding an end to Christmas celebrations. It's one of those things that gets distorted and exaggerated by those who win votes (BNP) or make money (Daily Mail) out of peddling such nonsense.
Paul101
says...
5:14pm Fri 28 Aug 09
1 the victims website calls it the Loughton Mosque
2 the BNP claim that the hall is used as a mosque and that is backed up by the BBC interview of the victim who refers to it as a mosque
3 The dictionary states that the building where a muslim prays is a Mosque.
That leads you to believe that the BNP are right in their claim.
4 The Attack has received massive coverage by the media and was given to the media within hours of the event? This will pervert the course of any fair investigation.
5 until proven this BNP attack can only be "alledged"
6 The victim did on BBC news threaten to "return with many more to fight this". that does not sound like a "victim"
7 The MCAB (muslim council of Britain) note they drop the word great. Reported that he had been kidnapped and his family killed within hours of the event.
8 Within hours of an alleged abduction the "victim" found the courage to personally quote to many different news agency and manage to return to the scene of the "attack" without any apparent concern.If (as he alleged) he was blindfolded how did he know where he was led until after the event?
These are just a few of many facts that surround the whole issue that when viewed objectively seem to point to the fact that the whole affair stinks of a publicity stunt.
SylvieM
says...
10:22pm Fri 28 Aug 09
Morris Hickey wrote:
Reading threads like this one begins to identify BNP supporters from their comments - whether from Loughton, Swanley or Darlington.
Keep your faith, Mr Ramjanally, and do not yield to bigotted bullies.
Well Mr. Hickey, You should know a bigoted bully when you see one that’s for sure. The indigenous people of this country have been bullied into silence for the last 10yrs. Not anymore. It is time we stood up for what we want for a change. Leo McKinstry's brilliant column in The Daily Express on Thursday was about how this country used to be. Within it was a comment from an old soldier who said ‘I and my comrades did not fight in the second world war to allow this once proud nation to be turned into a country we do not even recognise. And that is exactly how many people feel. The way things are going white people are going to end up living around the sea edge. And do not tell us that everyone is happy to live together, when there are large colonies of different races in different areas, as Trevor Phillips quite rightly pointed out.
D-503
says...
8:46am Sat 29 Aug 09
Presumably, he wanted to return Britain to an era of economic depression, job insecurity and grotesque levels of inequality that the country endured before the war. I've heard the same from my grandfather, who says he cannot recognise the country he grew up in - but he and his family were verging on starvation in Hartlepool and participated in the Jarrow Crusades against poverty and he found his only escape from poverty was joining the RAF. It's easy to look back with rose-tinted spectacles at a golden age that never really existed. I stayed with a family in Japan (which has seen near zero immigration) and saw the older generation bemoan the fact that Japan isn't the same as it was, that there is more crime than ever, that younger people don't have proper respect for elders any more, that modern culture is vulgar, etc. The world is subject to perpetual progress, globalisation and increased population movements. And for the most part, it's positive - it gives choices and opportunities. The only people that don't want to participate are the North Korean military, the Iranian mullahs and the BNP, who think you can freeze a nation or culture in one place in time and want to prevent anyone from behaving differently through pervasive and intrusive totalitarian government. I saw it as a kid on a trip behind the Iron Curtain to East Germany. Although there was little crime and everyone was guaranteed a home and a job, it was horrible, oppressive and people wanted to leave. Multi-cultural London is far, far better with its freedoms, opportunities and diversity. It's the face of progress.
Jane Swartz
says...
10:17am Sat 29 Aug 09
D-503 wrote:In a 100 years time, people like you with 'diversity jargon' will be exampled as the people who sold this Country out and contributed to turning it into a Muslim state. Blind eyed attitudes, acceptance and tolerance is ruining this once fine land.
"I and my comrades did not fight in the second world war to allow this once proud nation to be turned into a country we do not even recognise."
Presumably, he wanted to return Britain to an era of economic depression, job insecurity and grotesque levels of inequality that the country endured before the war. I've heard the same from my grandfather, who says he cannot recognise the country he grew up in - but he and his family were verging on starvation in Hartlepool and participated in the Jarrow Crusades against poverty and he found his only escape from poverty was joining the RAF. It's easy to look back with rose-tinted spectacles at a golden age that never really existed. I stayed with a family in Japan (which has seen near zero immigration) and saw the older generation bemoan the fact that Japan isn't the same as it was, that there is more crime than ever, that younger people don't have proper respect for elders any more, that modern culture is vulgar, etc. The world is subject to perpetual progress, globalisation and increased population movements. And for the most part, it's positive - it gives choices and opportunities. The only people that don't want to participate are the North Korean military, the Iranian mullahs and the BNP, who think you can freeze a nation or culture in one place in time and want to prevent anyone from behaving differently through pervasive and intrusive totalitarian government. I saw it as a kid on a trip behind the Iron Curtain to East Germany. Although there was little crime and everyone was guaranteed a home and a job, it was horrible, oppressive and people wanted to leave. Multi-cultural London is far, far better with its freedoms, opportunities and diversity. It's the face of progress.
D-503
says...
3:00pm Sat 29 Aug 09
I don't think this country is ruined, nor that the various problems in this country are reducible to the presence of Muslims. Having my opinions does not make me a traitor - I've not committed a crime, I pay my taxes, I vote and I participate fully in civic life. That's all that should be expected of a citizen, whatever their race or religion or political ideology. Britain is not going to turn into a Muslim state just because people allow Muslim citizens to pray together in a community centre on a Friday lunch time just as it won't become a Jewish state because Jews worship in a synagogue every Saturday.
Alan Griffiths
says...
8:42pm Sun 30 Aug 09
"Epping is mostly indigenous. And people here voted for 5 BNP Councillors because they would like it to stay that way. Is this racist? No it isn’t, it is self preservation."
People who want a veto on who their neighbours are enemies of freedom.
sarah j smith
says...
9:33pm Sun 30 Aug 09
sarah j smith
says...
9:40pm Sun 30 Aug 09
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D-503 says...
1:59am Thu 27 Aug 09
http://www.guardian.
co.uk/world/2009/aug
/26/muslim-attack-bn
p-essex
"Smashing windows is a British method". Discuss.