Gemma, did Harry help with the spelling?
As I look down I see shocked humans, distressed by the sight of a blood soaked man, as they queue for their "bloody and violent" video games. Oh how the law of Solomon works in mysterious ways!

I'd just like to clarify, that the incident and the four "blokes" involved had no connections with the people who were in the queue for Grand Theft Auto 4, nor did they have any intentions of purchasing the game.
It just happened in the same place.

I was in the queue and saw the events unfold, but once again it seems instead of looking at the root of the problem it's much more conveniant to blame the games that we play.

Gemma and Harry, thanks for your lazy use of the word "controversial". No media story is complete without it!

Blame the game, you miss my point. I am not alluding to the link between violent games and real violence. I just find it ironic that as you queue for your "virtual violence" the real thing is happening around you. Why don't you get a job as an Egyptian scuba diver, then you could be deeper in de-nile. Below is one human who has seen the link:
As increasingly violent games are released, this latest support for the long-held theory of a link between video games and violence offers little comfort to parents. Ms Pakeerah has called for tighter controls on games before the release of Bully, which features a pupil beating up classmates. She claims that the game Manhunt inspired Warren Leblanc to kill her son, Stefan, 14, in a Leicester park last February. Players earn points for killings in the game.
Leblanc has been jailed for life, although Manhunt did not feature in the prosecution case against him. Manhunt and Bully are made by Rockstar Games. “There needs to be an independent watchdog regulating the production of such games.”
Manhunt and Bully are only two of the violent games available. In Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, also made by Rockstar, players pick up prostitutes and deal in drugs. In Hitman: Blood Money, players shoot people for money. Five US groups last year declared these games among the ten most violent video games ever made.
Dr Kieffer and Jessica Nicoll, the study’s co-author, have called for further long-term studies to examine in detail the effects of video games on children.

Typical shoddy press.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Law of Solomon wrote:
Gemma, did Harry help with the spelling? As I look down I see shocked humans, distressed by the sight of a blood soaked man, as they queue for their \"bloody and violent\" video games. Oh how the law of Solomon works in mysterious ways!

Please. Go. Away. 'Game' not related to 'incident'. 'Incident' related to 'ignoranance' and 'lack of tolerance'

Law of Solomon wrote:
Blame the game, you miss my point. I am not alluding to the link between violent games and real violence. I just find it ironic that as you queue for your "virtual violence" the real thing is happening around you. Why don't you get a job as an Egyptian scuba diver, then you could be deeper in de-nile. Below is one human who has seen the link: As increasingly violent games are released, this latest support for the long-held theory of a link between video games and violence offers little comfort to parents. Ms Pakeerah has called for tighter controls on games before the release of Bully, which features a pupil beating up classmates. She claims that the game Manhunt inspired Warren Leblanc to kill her son, Stefan, 14, in a Leicester park last February. Players earn points for killings in the game. Leblanc has been jailed for life, although Manhunt did not feature in the prosecution case against him. Manhunt and Bully are made by Rockstar Games. “There needs to be an independent watchdog regulating the production of such games.” Manhunt and Bully are only two of the violent games available. In Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, also made by Rockstar, players pick up prostitutes and deal in drugs. In Hitman: Blood Money, players shoot people for money. Five US groups last year declared these games among the ten most violent video games ever made. Dr Kieffer and Jessica Nicoll, the study’s co-author, have called for further long-term studies to examine in detail the effects of video games on children.

So, censorship is the answer?? No. Parents and shopowners need to be more responsible. Certification should be upheld by these people but, unfortunately, most parents still view any game for children. Would the same people allow their child to watch an 18 cert film? Censorship is controlling only educating children and adults will work.

RJK - Again my point is not that violent games make violent people, it is that ANY violence will breed further violence be it "virtual" or reality. The ironic fact that there were gamesters queuing whilst real violence happened nearby is the point. No need to waste your money on Rockstar (smug smiles all round) just look out the window. Exeter, hmmm nice town, floated over it once, hardly South London though is it. What you fail to pick up is that there have been many stabbings and nightly violence in this town and LoS and many others are sick of it. We want real policing, justice and punishment. Even the BBC has now added this story to their national website...L.B.C. in the news again, for the wrong reasons. As the great Peter Cook once quipped: I watched sooty on TV earlier, now Ive got the urge to get inside a glove!!! Float on up here with me and the view is clear….

Stabbing in Croydon? Surely not - Mr Gore has already stated crime is falling in Croydon.

yes - falling and hitting its head on the pavement!

Take a look at the picture of the eyewitness who was unable to separate fantasy from reality because he was viewing it in *real time* and ask yourself 'are these nerds actually normal?' Look at the state of the bloke!

Can just see the headline next week:

"Pedestrian Killed outside of Gamestation in hit and run attack new 'Mario Kart' game blamed for Massive rise in reckless driving".

So are we to assume that the massive amount of drink related violence Every Night of the Week is related to games? Or should we view it as the action of beered up idiots?

Interestingly for an article attempting to link violence to gaming it's interesting how the diligent reporters didn't note that if Malcolm was buying the game for his 13 year old nephew he could be imprisoned for up to 4 years for supplying 18 rated material to a minor. But of course the 13 year old was queuing up in the centre of town at almost 11pm on a school night because his uncle needed moral support.

Why was this Malcom queuing up to buy his 13 year old nephew an 18 rated game??

Come on Croydon Guardian... get on the story.

I'd love to see this Malcolm arrested for breaking the law.

It's people like Malcolm Critchell that ruin the gaming and film industry for people like myself. It only takes one idiot to ruin everything for the rest of us by getting such games banned. This is a game aimed at adults, ie people over 18. Sadly, I've no doubt whatsoever the mainstream media will be pointing the finger at this game when some little 14 year old waste of space decides to stab somebody. Very poor show from the Guardian for not highlighting what is clearly the most shocking thing about this story.

1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself!

2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it.


Does that answer your questions!

Why don't you all leave this Malcolm bloke alone. He was buying a game to play, big deal. Can you honestly say the younger members have never been anywhere near a game like this. I think not. And if they haven't well perhaps you should take your children out of assemblies and stop them from watching any kind of moving images, because violence is everywhere, the least of your worries should be 2-d violence.

People seem to be forgetting that someone got stabbed. This is nothing to do with underage game buying or really the game itself but the fact that some guy was simply queuing to buy it and nearly got killed.

Ah hah someone with some sense. A man, who had been stabbed, was wondering down the street with a bloody great knife. He obviously wasn't a gamer otherwise he would have been waiting patiently for his copy of GTA.

Where are the calming words of Anne Giles to tell us crime isn't a problem in Croydon?
She must be busy pistol-whipping hussies on GTA4.

Perhaps the house-wife turned private-dick is out sniffing out the stab victims attacker. I can see her now prowling the streets of Croydon in a beige raincoat, with a voice over and smokey side alleys full of unsavoury characters lurking around every corner. Or perhaps she is just at home curled up in front of the fire with a cuppa watching a recording of last Christmas' Queens speech.

Malcolm wrote:
1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself!

2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it.


Does that answer your questions!

"so WE could play it"

Think you've just implicated yourself there!

There were black people with knives in Croydon when 'gaming' was just playing with a hoop and stick.......

Angry Gamer wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself!

2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it.


Does that answer your questions!

"so WE could play it"

Think you've just implicated yourself there!

leave macolm alone you bunch of ignorant people.

i'm 14 and i've played grand theft auto IV.

it doesn't mean i'm going to walk the streets at night and look to stab people.

it's just sad if you think malcolm is to blame for street violence.he didn't stab the victim did he? if you think that you are trying protect children then turn off the television and tear up the books because violence is everywhere and you can't escape it.it's not fair to point the finger at certain people who were there.

in actual fact malcolm is a nice bloke as i have talked with him on other sites.

I'm a 26 year old female teacher who is hooked on GTA. Sure, when I am driving around I have visions of crashing into cars and squishing people walking along the road. What stops me are my morals taught to me by my parents - video games are not to fault - feral brats brought up with no concept of right and wrong or consequences are to fault. Lets hope the parents of the thug running around with a knife will give him a kick up the backside.

james chapman (minichapman) wrote:

Angry Gamer wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself!

2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it.


Does that answer your questions!

"so WE could play it"

Think you've just implicated yourself there!

leave macolm alone you bunch of ignorant people.

i'm 14 and i've played grand theft auto IV.

it doesn't mean i'm going to walk the streets at night and look to stab people.

it's just sad if you think malcolm is to blame for street violence.he didn't stab the victim did he? if you think that you are trying protect children then turn off the television and tear up the books because violence is everywhere and you can't escape it.it's not fair to point the finger at certain people who were there.

in actual fact malcolm is a nice bloke as i have talked with him on other sites.

Did your parent have to buy the game for you?

Or did your mate Malcolm lend you his copy?

If there's no consistancy with shops selling 18 rated games to kids like you, then the lazy media will pick up on that and continue to write such trashy pieces as this original story. Ratings are there for a reason, and should be enforced so adult like me (and other contributors here) can enjoy media aimed at adults.

I think Malcolm has really brought this on himself by willingly posing with a copy of the game in relation to a story about a stabbing!! What kind of article did he think the papers would write? If he really cared about the games industry he'd want no part of the article - but I can see that 5 minutes of fame was too alluring.

Worst. Stabbing. Ever.

Ade Monkson wrote:

james chapman (minichapman) wrote:

Angry Gamer wrote:

Malcolm wrote: 1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself! 2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it. Does that answer your questions!

\\\"so WE could play it\\\" Think you\\\'ve just implicated yourself there!

leave macolm alone you bunch of ignorant people. i\\\'m 14 and i\\\'ve played grand theft auto IV. it doesn\\\'t mean i\\\'m going to walk the streets at night and look to stab people. it\\\'s just sad if you think malcolm is to blame for street violence.he didn\\\'t stab the victim did he? if you think that you are trying protect children then turn off the television and tear up the books because violence is everywhere and you can\\\'t escape it.it\\\'s not fair to point the finger at certain people who were there. in actual fact malcolm is a nice bloke as i have talked with him on other sites.

Did your parent have to buy the game for you? Or did your mate Malcolm lend you his copy? If there\\\'s no consistancy with shops selling 18 rated games to kids like you, then the lazy media will pick up on that and continue to write such trashy pieces as this original story. Ratings are there for a reason, and should be enforced so adult like me (and other contributors here) can enjoy media aimed at adults. I think Malcolm has really brought this on himself by willingly posing with a copy of the game in relation to a story about a stabbing!! What kind of article did he think the papers would write? If he really cared about the games industry he\\\'d want no part of the article - but I can see that 5 minutes of fame was too alluring.

Well one reason for holding up a copy of the game would be as proof that he was actually there in the queue in the first place. Would you much rather he held up a photo of the knife victim Mr Monkson?

The main point you fail to grasp is that under 18's can quite easily get to films and tv shows that, by law, they are prohibited from viewing. That is the exact same scenario with games. But which industry gets the short straw and all the flack from the media? Exactly. And why? Because games are an easy target.
Ive have watched films, tv shows and played games that I was too young to partake in, but ive never had the urge to steal a car, stab/shoot somebody afterwards. If anything, from experience, playing games acts as a virtual stress ball and vents out all that unecessary anger that may fill up inside you now and again without the need for consequences that stem from the real world.

And one final thing, if Malcolm didnt care about the games industry he would have linked the attack with the game itself, so in what way does he **** GTA and the games industry in general?

Unless im reading a different article to you then that is certainly not the case. Shame on YOU for accusing an honest lad who was trying to help the police of cashing in amidst a bad situation!!

He was photographed in his living room, not during the queue or in the shop buying the game!! So it was premeditated... e.g. the Croydon Guardian following the quotes up with 'can we arrange for our photographer to come to your house and take a photo of you with the game?'. If, as you claim, he just wanted to show he had the game - I'm sure he/someone could have taken a photo at the shop.

I do blame him for helping feed this lazy journalism.

Grant wrote:

Ade Monkson wrote:

james chapman (minichapman) wrote:

Angry Gamer wrote:

Malcolm wrote: 1st. Where does it say i was buying for my nephew? I was buying it for myself! 2nd. There was no school for him today therefore came with me to pick it up so we could play it. Does that answer your questions!

\\\\\\\"so WE could play it\\\\\\\" Think you\\\\\\\'ve just implicated yourself there!

leave macolm alone you bunch of ignorant people. i\\\\\\\'m 14 and i\\\\\\\'ve played grand theft auto IV. it doesn\\\\\\\'t mean i\\\\\\\'m going to walk the streets at night and look to stab people. it\\\\\\\'s just sad if you think malcolm is to blame for street violence.he didn\\\\\\\'t stab the victim did he? if you think that you are trying protect children then turn off the television and tear up the books because violence is everywhere and you can\\\\\\\'t escape it.it\\\\\\\'s not fair to point the finger at certain people who were there. in actual fact malcolm is a nice bloke as i have talked with him on other sites.

Did your parent have to buy the game for you? Or did your mate Malcolm lend you his copy? If there\\\\\\\'s no consistancy with shops selling 18 rated games to kids like you, then the lazy media will pick up on that and continue to write such trashy pieces as this original story. Ratings are there for a reason, and should be enforced so adult like me (and other contributors here) can enjoy media aimed at adults. I think Malcolm has really brought this on himself by willingly posing with a copy of the game in relation to a story about a stabbing!! What kind of article did he think the papers would write? If he really cared about the games industry he\\\\\\\'d want no part of the article - but I can see that 5 minutes of fame was too alluring.

Well one reason for holding up a copy of the game would be as proof that he was actually there in the queue in the first place. Would you much rather he held up a photo of the knife victim Mr Monkson? The main point you fail to grasp is that under 18\'s can quite easily get to films and tv shows that, by law, they are prohibited from viewing. That is the exact same scenario with games. But which industry gets the short straw and all the flack from the media? Exactly. And why? Because games are an easy target. Ive have watched films, tv shows and played games that I was too young to partake in, but ive never had the urge to steal a car, stab/shoot somebody afterwards. If anything, from experience, playing games acts as a virtual stress ball and vents out all that unecessary anger that may fill up inside you now and again without the need for consequences that stem from the real world. And one final thing, if Malcolm didnt care about the games industry he would have linked the attack with the game itself, so in what way does he **** GTA and the games industry in general? Unless im reading a different article to you then that is certainly not the case. Shame on YOU for accusing an honest lad who was trying to help the police of cashing in amidst a bad situation!!

I just wanted to quote a quote that was quoted from the quote of a quote!!

Bottom line... a dude was stabbed! if he was stabbed outside a que to a club it would have been blamed on clubbers and drink. if it was outside a strip joint it would have been down to testosterone. If it was outside Anne Giles' house it would have been down to the PCSO's attending a press conference!

It has nothing to do with GTA. the censorship on games is for BUYING the game. not playing it in your own home. Just as you can drink alcohol at any age in your own home but just cant buy it!

Does it matter if this bloke bought it so his nephew can play or not? At end of the day he was there whoopdee doo & someone got stabbed.
Its Croydon, get over it. It will happen again anyway.

LOL it Bob by the way, Annes probably the one who stabbed the poor bloke!!

Only joking, best wishes for him though, hope he gets bettwer soon.

Any way, kids dont need games to influence them to kill & what not, its their mates.
Ask any kid, they will listen to their mates over their parents most of the time so if their mate says jump, they reply 'how high?'

Games are games for a reason, they are not real!!!

@Malcolm
Do not worry about all these t*ts making comments about you.

You were right to go to the papers otherwise this would just be another stabbing gone unheard.

Croydon is bad and it is getting worse and the more people go to the papers the more pressure is put on the police to do something about it.

Want someone to blame, try Mark Gore or the rest of his cronies.

Also there is always ANNE (Farmer) GILES. She's always good as a scapegoat.

I am getting rather fed up with this witch hunt, as that what it seems to have turned into.
I have been a gamer since the age of 7. I am now 31. I have played games such as GTA, Mortal Kombat, Resident Evil, Manhunt and other violent games. Now, the point here is that I have never once when playing these games on a daily basis felt like going out and stabbing someone. People will ALWAYS find a scapegoat to blame something on. There is NO scientific evidentual fact to back this claim up either, only conjecture. People don't just blame video games either, in the 80's violence was blamed on snuff movies which were evidentally banned, but there was no proof to back it up. The media will always blame someone, but they won't blame someones mental condition.
Blame the conditioning of todays society rather than that of a game!!

Well said Johnathan. I once played a dog-fight game. It never made me want to enter into aerial combat. Mario never made me want to headbutt brick walls or jump on mushrooms and Sonic never made me want to frantically run around stealing rings and spinning insanely.

Mr Monkson wrote:
He was photographed in his living room, not during the queue or in the shop buying the game!! So it was premeditated... e.g. the Croydon Guardian following the quotes up with 'can we arrange for our photographer to come to your house and take a photo of you with the game?'. If, as you claim, he just wanted to show he had the game - I'm sure he/someone could have taken a photo at the shop. I do blame him for helping feed this lazy journalism.

Maybe the store didnt want a photo to be taken outside the store and maybe the police wouldnt allow a photo to be taken outside the store either. Plus it wouldnt have been difficult for them to take a photo outside the store with all the real fame hungry idiots out there trying to get in the photo.

Why dont stop blaming this man for having his photo taken and think about the man who was stabbed that night you insensitive fool.

As far I can see, reading through the comments - nobody is trying to say that the tenuous link between games and actual violence is real or substantial... it seems to be more about the blatant disregard for the ratings system.

It's absolutely galling reading parent's comments about violent games yet they're often the ones buying them for their kids without taking heed of the rating! Yet these parents probably would go and buy them ****, or a copy of Saw III - but somehow their ignorance is then the fault of the games industry!!

The whole Stephen Pakera murder (whilst abbhorant and sad) was treated as a witch-hunt by the media - yet it was the victim that owned the game, not the killer - and the killing was over a dispute about drug/unpaid debts. But, the press never seemed to let the actual facts get in the way of a sensationalist story.

I'm all for violent video games aimed at adults. I'm also very much for proper policing of shops selling 18 rated games to children, and I'm very much in favour of parents actually parenting and not burying their head in the sand or claiming ignorance.

I just think this story and it's lazy/sensationalism journalism is wrong. A cheap shot at the games industry if you like. And, like the other poster think that this Malcolm enjoyed his bit of fame without thinking how he may be unwittingly be playing into the hands of the Guardian and giving the (tenuous) link between the stabbing and GTA extra press.

As far I can see, reading through the comments - nobody is trying to say that the tenuous link between games and actual violence is real or substantial... it seems to be more about the blatant disregard for the ratings system.

It's absolutely galling reading parent's comments about violent games yet they're often the ones buying them for their kids without taking heed of the rating! Yet these parents probably would go and buy them ****, or a copy of Saw III - but somehow their ignorance is then the fault of the games industry!!

The whole Stephen Pakera murder (whilst abbhorant and sad) was treated as a witch-hunt by the media - yet it was the victim that owned the game, not the killer - and the killing was over a dispute about drug/unpaid debts. But, the press never seemed to let the actual facts get in the way of a sensationalist story.

I'm all for violent video games aimed at adults. I'm also very much for proper policing of shops selling 18 rated games to children, and I'm very much in favour of parents actually parenting and not burying their head in the sand or claiming ignorance.

I just think this story and it's lazy/sensationalism journalism is wrong. A cheap shot at the games industry if you like. And, like the other poster think that this Malcolm enjoyed his bit of fame without thinking how he may be unwittingly be playing into the hands of the Guardian and giving the (tenuous) link between the stabbing and GTA extra press.

As far I can see, reading through the comments - nobody is trying to say that the tenuous link between games and actual violence is real or substantial... it seems to be more about the blatant disregard for the ratings system.

It's absolutely galling reading parent's comments about violent games yet they're often the ones buying them for their kids without taking heed of the rating! Yet these parents probably would go and buy them ****, or a copy of Saw III - but somehow their ignorance is then the fault of the games industry!!

The whole Stephen Pakera murder (whilst abbhorant and sad) was treated as a witch-hunt by the media - yet it was the victim that owned the game, not the killer - and the killing was over a dispute about drug/unpaid debts. But, the press never seemed to let the actual facts get in the way of a sensationalist story.

I'm all for violent video games aimed at adults. I'm also very much for proper policing of shops selling 18 rated games to children, and I'm very much in favour of parents actually parenting and not burying their head in the sand or claiming ignorance.

I just think this story and it's lazy/sensationalism journalism is wrong. A cheap shot at the games industry if you like. And, like the other poster think that this Malcolm enjoyed his bit of fame without thinking how he may be unwittingly be playing into the hands of the Guardian and giving the (tenuous) link between the stabbing and GTA extra press.

Just reading further through the comments and I saw the peice by James Chapman and the retort by Ade Monkson. OK, so Jame has played the game, fair enough, but he wouldn't have been allowed to by the game this for sure, as the game has an 18 rating. Look, I have three children and in my personal opinion I wouldn't let them play the game and even though I did think about buying the game I won't as I don't PERSONALLY want my children seeing the violent content in the game. That's my choice as a parent. That still doesn't say that even though James is 14 he isn't a mature young person who doesn't know right from wrong and has the mind to know that going out and stabbing someone is wrong. OK so his parents maybe wrong to let him play the game, but then it is in his own home and you can't tell me that out of the adults who have commented on here never saw an 18 or 15 certificate film before they were old enough!!
I think the problem is that people listen to the sensationallistic pap we get pumped into us by the media. We live in a democracy where, I thought, we have freedom of though and of choice.

Forgive me, but where in the story does it say the two are linked? It says a man was stabbed while queueing to get a copy of the new Grand Theft Auto game, which is 100 per cent accurate. It does not say he was stabbed because he was in the queue. Tsk, read the bloody thing first.

Eric Leaver wrote:
Forgive me, but where in the story does it say the two are linked? It says a man was stabbed while queueing to get a copy of the new Grand Theft Auto game, which is 100 per cent accurate. It does not say he was stabbed because he was in the queue. Tsk, read the bloody thing first.

Sorry Eric but I was there Monday night. 100% accurate? No. 100% bull.There is nothing accurate about this or any of the related articles.

He was not queing, he was walking past the queue, towards east croydon.

Oh and the stabbing itself happend closer to Croydon college. A good distance from Gamestation.

Dont take the papers for gospel. Tsk to you, and tsk to the guardian and all other papers who have covered this story. Poorly.

Dont demonise games. Crack down on drunken louts, like the people involved in this case.

Here's the facts behind this

http://www.vnunet.co
m/vnunet/news/221557
4/grand-theft-auto-s
tabbing

And here's a more in depth article.

These are the FACTS.

http://www.gamesrada
r.com/xbox360/grand-
theft-auto-iv/news/g
ta-stabbing-nothing-
to-do-with-gta/a-200
80430102550859040/g-
2006051014323586065