Your chance to help Sutton Council decide how cuts are made at public meeting

Cuts are coming - but you can help the council decide how they are made.

Cuts are coming - but you can help the council decide how they are made.

First published in News This Is Local London: Photograph of the Author by , Chief Reporter

A public meeting where plans to cut front-line services to save the council millions will be discussed will happen on Wednesday.

Sutton Council has to cut £40million from its budget over the next four years and has warned people that services they use may be at stake.

In order to decide how to make the cuts, it has launched the Sutton's Future consultation in which people will be given the chance to have their say over what they want to keep.

The consultation launched several weeks ago and people can take part by visiting suttonsfuture.org.
People can also get involved by attending a meeting at the council's offices in St Nicholas Way from 7.30pm on Wednesday. 

To confirm your intention to attend, email suttonsfuture@sutton.gov.uk

Comments (36)

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9:01am Mon 28 Jul 14

Niki R says...

As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall. Niki R
  • Score: 7

10:46am Mon 28 Jul 14

Giles C says...

I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil...
I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil... Giles C
  • Score: 7

1:06pm Mon 28 Jul 14

LiberalsOut says...

Giles C wrote:
I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil...
Not forgetting the outside consultants - agency staff - Mayor - Chief Executives office
[quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil...[/p][/quote]Not forgetting the outside consultants - agency staff - Mayor - Chief Executives office LiberalsOut
  • Score: 5

1:06pm Mon 28 Jul 14

LiberalsOut says...

Giles C wrote:
I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil...
Not forgetting the outside consultants - agency staff - Mayor - Chief Executives office
[quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: I do hope they dont decide to cut the Life Centre or any of the 12 people at the council earning over 120k a year...That would make my blood boil...[/p][/quote]Not forgetting the outside consultants - agency staff - Mayor - Chief Executives office LiberalsOut
  • Score: 0

1:10pm Mon 28 Jul 14

LiberalsOut says...

Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
[quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply LiberalsOut
  • Score: 4

4:36pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
[quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless ResidentTony
  • Score: -6

5:16pm Mon 28 Jul 14

theavengers says...

Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens.
Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens. theavengers
  • Score: -9

5:18pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

theavengers wrote:
Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens.
what about hard working Welsh people?
[quote][p][bold]theavengers[/bold] wrote: Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens.[/p][/quote]what about hard working Welsh people? ResidentTony
  • Score: 7

5:23pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
having just read theavengers post, I am beginning to think you three are not too bad after all....
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]having just read theavengers post, I am beginning to think you three are not too bad after all.... ResidentTony
  • Score: -2

10:21pm Mon 28 Jul 14

Simon Densley says...

ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'? Simon Densley
  • Score: 4

12:45am Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers. ResidentTony
  • Score: -4

6:29am Tue 29 Jul 14

Giles C says...

ResidentTony wrote:
Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough.
Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.[/p][/quote]There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough. Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent? Giles C
  • Score: 10

9:18am Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough.
Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?
well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.
[quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.[/p][/quote]There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough. Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?[/p][/quote]well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation. ResidentTony
  • Score: -10

10:11am Tue 29 Jul 14

David7 says...

Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP. David7
  • Score: 5

11:37am Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

ResidentTony wrote:
Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough.
Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?
well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.
What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list.

A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically.

Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise.

Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer.

Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too.

In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture.

For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library.

Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building).

But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP!
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.[/p][/quote]There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough. Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?[/p][/quote]well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.[/p][/quote]What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list. A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically. Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise. Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer. Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too. In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture. For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library. Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building). But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP! ResidentTony
  • Score: -1

11:58am Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
[quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance. ResidentTony
  • Score: -3

12:06pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

ResidentTony wrote:
theavengers wrote:
Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens.
what about hard working Welsh people?
The Yes campaign in Scotland would have a field day with this!
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]theavengers[/bold] wrote: Get rid of all the vanity projects and bring more secure jobs, housing, and hospital care to hard working English people. Cut anyone who hasn't paid council tax in this borough for at least 5 years from getting top of the housing list, NHS care, and school list. Sure they can't do that but it would save us billions if we ran this country in mind for it's British citizens.[/p][/quote]what about hard working Welsh people?[/p][/quote]The Yes campaign in Scotland would have a field day with this! ResidentTony
  • Score: -3

12:53pm Tue 29 Jul 14

David7 says...

ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say. David7
  • Score: 8

1:11pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
[quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching. ResidentTony
  • Score: 0

1:25pm Tue 29 Jul 14

LiberalsOut says...

ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con

I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Not quite speechless yet ????
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Not quite speechless yet ???? LiberalsOut
  • Score: -1

1:31pm Tue 29 Jul 14

LiberalsOut says...

ResidentTony wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough.
Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?
well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.
What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list.

A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically.

Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise.

Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer.

Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too.

In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture.

For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library.

Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building).

But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP!
Has he finished yet?
Totally wrong as always but better than most comedians currently on TV
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.[/p][/quote]There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough. Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?[/p][/quote]well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.[/p][/quote]What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list. A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically. Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise. Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer. Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too. In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture. For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library. Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building). But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP![/p][/quote]Has he finished yet? Totally wrong as always but better than most comedians currently on TV LiberalsOut
  • Score: -2

1:55pm Tue 29 Jul 14

Giles C says...

ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration.
You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not....
The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success.
We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone.
Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London.
I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school.
Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton.
I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own.
Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers.
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration. You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not.... The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success. We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone. Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London. I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school. Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton. I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own. Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers. Giles C
  • Score: 7

1:59pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

LiberalsOut wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con

I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Not quite speechless yet ????
Giles asked me a question. Blame him.
[quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Not quite speechless yet ????[/p][/quote]Giles asked me a question. Blame him. ResidentTony
  • Score: 0

2:05pm Tue 29 Jul 14

David7 says...

ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils.

Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch.

Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress!

Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria...

Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due.

But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale.

The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example.

Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government.

Cake and eat it, yes?
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils. Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch. Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress! Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria... Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due. But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale. The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example. Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government. Cake and eat it, yes? David7
  • Score: 7

2:27pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration.
You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not....
The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success.
We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone.
Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London.
I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school.
Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton.
I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own.
Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers.
I don't mind, Giles, you pointing out administrative problems in the council. It is your absolue right to do so. It is just that in your dedication to this task you may end up criticising the towns and villages which make up the borough. Collateral damage. If I felt the way you do about the Council and as the proud citizen of Sutton which you also are, I'd conscientiously talk Sutton up as a place, while critiquing the way the council is run. All too often your comments conflate the two and you just come across as anti-Sutton per se. I know it is a difficult balancing act as you clearly want the Lib Dems out. Badly. But if your comments could be a tad more even handed they would carry more weight. Even if you spare no mercy for the Lib Dems, at least acknowledge at the same time what a great place Sutton is (despite the terrible Council as you would see it).
[quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration. You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not.... The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success. We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone. Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London. I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school. Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton. I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own. Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers.[/p][/quote]I don't mind, Giles, you pointing out administrative problems in the council. It is your absolue right to do so. It is just that in your dedication to this task you may end up criticising the towns and villages which make up the borough. Collateral damage. If I felt the way you do about the Council and as the proud citizen of Sutton which you also are, I'd conscientiously talk Sutton up as a place, while critiquing the way the council is run. All too often your comments conflate the two and you just come across as anti-Sutton per se. I know it is a difficult balancing act as you clearly want the Lib Dems out. Badly. But if your comments could be a tad more even handed they would carry more weight. Even if you spare no mercy for the Lib Dems, at least acknowledge at the same time what a great place Sutton is (despite the terrible Council as you would see it). ResidentTony
  • Score: 0

2:30pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

LiberalsOut wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
Simon Densley wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
LiberalsOut wrote:
Niki R wrote:
As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.
Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming
I am amazed that people fall for this con
I await Resident Tony's reply
Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless
Did someone say 'predicability'?
what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.
There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough.
Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?
well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.
What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list.

A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically.

Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise.

Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer.

Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too.

In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture.

For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library.

Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building).

But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP!
Has he finished yet?
Totally wrong as always but better than most comedians currently on TV
you are obviously watching the wrong comedians.
[quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Densley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LiberalsOut[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: As if they haven't already decided where the cuts will fall.[/p][/quote]Of course they have, after all they have know for over two years the cuts were coming I am amazed that people fall for this con I await Resident Tony's reply[/p][/quote]Not sure which of the comments from Niki, Giles and you is most pointless....words fail me this time...your boring predicability leaves me speechless[/p][/quote]Did someone say 'predicability'?[/p][/quote]what's your point sir? yes predictably knee-jerk fake-cynicism from the three anti-Council professionals, topped off with a generous helping of UKIP-style bigotry from theavengers.[/p][/quote]There is nothing fake about my cynicism...it's based on empirical evidence and the use of my own eyes as I wander round the borough. Please tell me Tony what the council has done in your view that is stand out excellent?[/p][/quote]well either you are playing up your cynicism or you are just plain deluded. I was going for the former, probably more generous interpretation.[/p][/quote]What have the Romans ever done for us, Giles asks? As a politically undecided citizen, I will go one better and jot down a few good things AND one or two less good things the Council have done. It's a just few things off the top of my head, and definitely not an exhaustive list. A reasonable job on education building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch. The Life Centre is a bold and innovative venture and hats off to the Council for trying this and securing no less than 4 million pounds of lottery funding. It may yet prove itself. It is already impressive technologically. Healthcare is to a good standard although obviously it is a great shame the new St Helier building stalled. The newish centre (off Collingwood road) for people with autism deserves praise. Ecology is world class what with the Ecology Centre, the Environmental Fair and the multi-award winning BedZED zero energy development. It is world famous among building environmental professionals. No doubt the Tories would have been proud to have done none of this! And saved us £1.73 each a year in Council tax! Enough for nearly half a pint of beer. Although people moan, parking permit fees are low by London standards and road humps are a lot less damaging than in some boroughs. Boy racers are largely a thing of the past (as is graffiti), perhaps thanks to the presence of the Transport Police offices in the town. You may get the odd souped up nutter, but at least they don't all congregate in the High St in the evening. On transport the number of trains per hour to Victoria has been doubled, and Sutton station is being improved, including a second entrance. It was the first station on the line to gain lifts - 14 years ago. The Council are pressing the borough's case for the tram extension. Local business is signed up too. In 1990 the Council got us a large good quality hotel where the opposition would have landed us with DIY superstore blot on the landscape. But being even-handed I would have to add that the Council lost their way in 2002 and waved through the ugly B&Q building - not their finest hour. But at least they softened the blow by securing the Transpose 2002 sculpture. For me personally, some of the smaller things have been what has made the difference for the better: public art in Sutton town centre, including the two large murals and the armillary which the local Rotarians gifted to the town. High St pedestrianisation in the 1980s, although the latest incarnation could have been done better. The building of the Charles Cryer Theatre in 1990 as part of the "Arts in Carshalton" initiative and ongoing funding of the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton town centre. The improvements to Sutton library, which admittedly was first built before the current administration - see how even handed I am. The new Westcroft Leisure centre, complete with its own library. Looking to the future, the Council have done great in getting us the Sutton Point and the Old Gas Works redevelopments, both now underway. This will bring hundreds of millions of pounds of private sector investment to the centre of Sutton. This will include luxury apartments in the town centre, which will have the knock-on benefit of attracting high-end new retailers to the High Street; a new hotel; offices; more shops and restaurants. Also a car club to reduce the need for the mainly young residents to own cars. Another achievement in my book is getting rid of the ugly Brighton Road white elephant car park while Subsea7 replace it with a state of-the-art office building which will be filled with young professionals sourced through graduate recruitment. The social housing stock has been rebuilt (eg Roundshaw) or refurbished (eg the striking-looking reclad Balaam apartment building). But I am ending on a negative note as there is a pressing issue at the moment: the new Hackbridge junction was not thought through carefully enough and needs sorting - ASAP![/p][/quote]Has he finished yet? Totally wrong as always but better than most comedians currently on TV[/p][/quote]you are obviously watching the wrong comedians. ResidentTony
  • Score: -1

3:04pm Tue 29 Jul 14

Giles C says...

ResidentTony wrote:
Giles C wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration.
You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not....
The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success.
We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone.
Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London.
I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school.
Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton.
I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own.
Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers.
I don't mind, Giles, you pointing out administrative problems in the council. It is your absolue right to do so. It is just that in your dedication to this task you may end up criticising the towns and villages which make up the borough. Collateral damage. If I felt the way you do about the Council and as the proud citizen of Sutton which you also are, I'd conscientiously talk Sutton up as a place, while critiquing the way the council is run. All too often your comments conflate the two and you just come across as anti-Sutton per se. I know it is a difficult balancing act as you clearly want the Lib Dems out. Badly. But if your comments could be a tad more even handed they would carry more weight. Even if you spare no mercy for the Lib Dems, at least acknowledge at the same time what a great place Sutton is (despite the terrible Council as you would see it).
The fact is that the LibDem administration is here for another 4 years whether I like it or not and I genuinely wish them well I their task..the problem is that this 4 years will undoubtedly be a harder battle than the last 4.
Council tax will rise..more children will not get the school places they desire at secondary level and the services we have come to take for granted will he scaled back or be chargeable.
My real problem is the spin the administration will put on these choices.
For the last 7 years the council has underspent on adult social services by an average of abt £2.5 million a year..About £17mill saved without cutting anything.
I just want to be spared the lunatic ideology that keeps spouting and venting from the bowels of the civic centre..
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Giles C[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]You see Tony it isnt ignorance that annoys me..yours just saddens me..what really winds me up is the Hypocrisy of most of this administration. You may be too young to remember this but judging by your memory of the Library and B&Q build probably not.... The Liberals in the borough tried in the late 80s to get the Grammar schools abolished..none other than a Mr Burstow was at the forefront of that helped by the newly reelected Cllr Penneck, yet they now what to piggy back off their success. We have spent a fortune on being a one planet living borough which has the same effect as Lambeth had when it was a nuclear free zone. Our recycling rates are through the floor and figures for youth alcholism in the borough are the highest in London. I applaud the authority for its primary school expansion programme but am greatly concerned by it coming so late to the party to build a new secondary school. Our planning department is in a state of chaos and our highways dept also is helping to destroy parts of Sutton. I am a proud citizen of Sutton having lived here all my life and i just cant stand the council not treating our money as if it were their own. Overton Grange was built with Govt money as was the new Stanley Park build with a large lump from the BSF programme but even then the council managed to squander..yes squander over £1million pounds on legal fees between itself and the health trust..yes £1million between 2 public bodies and all because one of the LBS officers didnt get on with one of the PCT officers.[/p][/quote]I don't mind, Giles, you pointing out administrative problems in the council. It is your absolue right to do so. It is just that in your dedication to this task you may end up criticising the towns and villages which make up the borough. Collateral damage. If I felt the way you do about the Council and as the proud citizen of Sutton which you also are, I'd conscientiously talk Sutton up as a place, while critiquing the way the council is run. All too often your comments conflate the two and you just come across as anti-Sutton per se. I know it is a difficult balancing act as you clearly want the Lib Dems out. Badly. But if your comments could be a tad more even handed they would carry more weight. Even if you spare no mercy for the Lib Dems, at least acknowledge at the same time what a great place Sutton is (despite the terrible Council as you would see it).[/p][/quote]The fact is that the LibDem administration is here for another 4 years whether I like it or not and I genuinely wish them well I their task..the problem is that this 4 years will undoubtedly be a harder battle than the last 4. Council tax will rise..more children will not get the school places they desire at secondary level and the services we have come to take for granted will he scaled back or be chargeable. My real problem is the spin the administration will put on these choices. For the last 7 years the council has underspent on adult social services by an average of abt £2.5 million a year..About £17mill saved without cutting anything. I just want to be spared the lunatic ideology that keeps spouting and venting from the bowels of the civic centre.. Giles C
  • Score: 3

3:08pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils.

Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch.

Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress!

Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria...

Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due.

But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale.

The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example.

Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government.

Cake and eat it, yes?
I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this.
[quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils. Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch. Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress! Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria... Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due. But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale. The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example. Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government. Cake and eat it, yes?[/p][/quote]I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this. ResidentTony
  • Score: 0

3:54pm Tue 29 Jul 14

David7 says...

ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils.

Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch.

Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress!

Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria...

Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due.

But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale.

The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example.

Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government.

Cake and eat it, yes?
I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this.
Jesus, Tony, that’s my credibility shot...
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils. Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch. Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress! Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria... Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due. But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale. The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example. Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government. Cake and eat it, yes?[/p][/quote]I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this.[/p][/quote]Jesus, Tony, that’s my credibility shot... David7
  • Score: 2

4:31pm Tue 29 Jul 14

ResidentTony says...

David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Absolute rubbish, Tony.

Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down.

If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day...

You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.
I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence:

"A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch".

They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.
The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils.

Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch.

Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress!

Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria...

Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due.

But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale.

The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example.

Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government.

Cake and eat it, yes?
I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this.
Jesus, Tony, that’s my credibility shot...
Don't worry I'll be criticising you again soon enough, no doubt....
[quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Absolute rubbish, Tony. Crikey, you do come up with some right old tosh. Actually I ‘commented’ on the Avengers post by voting it down. If I had the time to pass comment on all your claims (eg. ascribing railway upgrades and changes, and grammar school successes, to the council, when they are nothing to do with the council) I’d be here all day... You really don’t sound like an undecided voter, I must say.[/p][/quote]I will probably vote for Ed Milliband in the general election. But I feel the local Lib Dems come in for a lot of unfair stick from a vociferous minority , and my sense of justice makes me come to their defence on these pages. You sound busy, so here for ease of ref is what I said about schools - note the last sentence: "A reasonable job on education, building one completely new comprehensive 15 or so years ago and recently providing brand new state of the art premises for another. Our grammars are among the best in the whole of Britain and yet our comprehensives are still way above the national average. The latter is not necessarily down to the Council but it happened on their watch". They get credit for building two large new high schools, but not for the grammar schools' performance which is down to the bright pupils who go there coupled with good teaching.[/p][/quote]The council’s education department has always been brilliant, and our local teachers and educationalists are also incredibly good. The grammar schools were brilliant even before the Greenwich ruling skewed the performance (albeit upwards), but it is local teachers who do the hard miles to implement central government policies. The council does an increasingly good job with junior schools – but then Sutton has long been blessed with good schools, in spite of rather than because of successive Conservative and LibDem councils. Which, anyway, was not my point of debate. My complaint was in the way you ascribed credit to the LibDem council where it was not due, for example by things simply happening on their watch. Moreover, the facts of many of these matters are much more complex. As an example, much of the real hard work in getting the new Stanley Park school built was down to local councillors, and activists and especially the governors – if anything, some of the council’s poor decisions (eg. astonishing failure to secure the access road, as well as the attempted misappropriation of interest earned on supposedly ring-fenced funds) actually hindered progress! Similarly, changes to the increases in numbers of trains running through Sutton are down to economics and rising working population and other demographics, not pressure from Sutton Council. You may note that there is not just a single stop from Sutton to Victoria... Sutton Council has achieved many very, very good things in its time under control of the LibDems. Even the most tribal Labour or Tory (or whatever) die-hard would struggle to disagree. I certainly think there are many ticks due. But, with almost absolute power locally, the LibDems’ judgments are becoming increasingly erratic, and (in my view, of course) they are also increasingly cynical in the way they are manipulating important local issues for their own political benefit. Of course all parties do this, but I’ve never seen it happen locally on this scale. The recent charity-arranged ‘public’ meeting over the local health trust being hijacked by the LibDems is one example. Moreover, I’ve never heard a council moan so much about its tough decisions and budget cuts being down to central government policy – when it actually IS the co-party of government. Cake and eat it, yes?[/p][/quote]I am completely happy with this particular post. It does not disparage Sutton the place in critiquing Sutton the Council (to whom you nevertheless manage to give some limited credit). Some of the other Council critics could learn from this.[/p][/quote]Jesus, Tony, that’s my credibility shot...[/p][/quote]Don't worry I'll be criticising you again soon enough, no doubt.... ResidentTony
  • Score: 1

6:28pm Tue 29 Jul 14

Binsanity says...

Why don't you idiots bugger off and allow a serious discussion from people who really care and don't want to play "I'II have the last word". They allready know what cuts their going to make regardless of who they consulute and never said a word before the local elections. Lets prey for a by-election and now we can vote in true light.
Why don't you idiots bugger off and allow a serious discussion from people who really care and don't want to play "I'II have the last word". They allready know what cuts their going to make regardless of who they consulute and never said a word before the local elections. Lets prey for a by-election and now we can vote in true light. Binsanity
  • Score: -3

3:55pm Wed 30 Jul 14

Niki R says...

ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Does it hell. It means I was working and too busy to bother myself countering idiocy.
[quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Does it hell. It means I was working and too busy to bother myself countering idiocy. Niki R
  • Score: 7

4:34pm Wed 30 Jul 14

Hugh Dunnit says...

Agree with binsanity. Couple of point scoring t***s arguing while the rest of us are paying more for less.
Agree with binsanity. Couple of point scoring t***s arguing while the rest of us are paying more for less. Hugh Dunnit
  • Score: -6

5:12pm Wed 30 Jul 14

CharliiTVD says...

I thought the comments would be an interesting debate, but it is in fact just a bunch of adults insulting each other
I thought the comments would be an interesting debate, but it is in fact just a bunch of adults insulting each other CharliiTVD
  • Score: -5

7:33pm Wed 30 Jul 14

David7 says...

Niki R wrote:
ResidentTony wrote:
David7 wrote:
Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that.

At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.
I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.
Does it hell. It means I was working and too busy to bother myself countering idiocy.
Quite agree!
[quote][p][bold]Niki R[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ResidentTony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]David7[/bold] wrote: Rather ‘disappointed’ that the LibDems failed to highlight all this in their council election literature. Funny that. At least we don’t have to submit any questions for vetting through Tom Brake MP.[/p][/quote]I notice you have let theavengers bigotry go unchallenged. You'd rather stick the boot into the Council. A bit of support from you and Niki R on the bigotry would have been welcome....it's still not too late. Silence equals acceptance.[/p][/quote]Does it hell. It means I was working and too busy to bother myself countering idiocy.[/p][/quote]Quite agree! David7
  • Score: 2

7:42pm Wed 30 Jul 14

David7 says...

Bisanity, Hugh Dunnit, CharliiTVD – why not cast your own thoughts?
Bisanity, Hugh Dunnit, CharliiTVD – why not cast your own thoughts? David7
  • Score: 2

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